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| by Sam Varghese | |
| Tuesday, 19 February 2008 | |
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Page 3 of 3 Complaints about the Linux system were there in varying degrees from the beginning of the switch in 2001 but when all staff got laptops at the end of 2007, it spelt the end of Linux desktops at the school. The laptops came with Windows and Office installed - this was not negotiable. And then came the direction that the school PCs, those used in the classroom, were to be identical to the set-up of the laptops. Perkins says he is not an operating systems fanatic but adds that he found some real plus points with the Linux systems. Administration work was much less, there was very little downtime, and there were no viruses. All he had to do was to change the odd keyboard or mouse. Updating was not a disruptive process as it very rarely involved rebooting. It could be done while normal work was in progress and was fast. There is a sense of disappointment in his voice at times but then if you have raised a child to the age of six - and done it when raising a child is not the norm - his feelings can be understood. "Market penetration is a real issue," he says. "Linux does not have enough (penetration) to counter the argument that everyone uses Windows. "And the constant repetition of the question 'Is Linux ready for the desktop?' does not help. Linux, in my view, has been ready for the desktop for at least the last five years." Perkins said there were few people at the school now who had been there when Windows 98 was being used; hence very few could recall the difficulties encountered during that period. He has been at the school for 11 years and plans to move on this year. His move is not tied to the operating system switch - he has been looking out for a change for the last four years. Perkins still feels there may be some benefit from switching back to Windows - for some users, at least. "Two of three years down the road, there will be some people who will still be using only Internet Explorer and Word. But then there will be others who will use things like the Adobe applications (for example, Flash and Photoshop) and become competent in those." He did not wish to put a figure on the cost of migrating to Vista; all he said was that the school's IT budget had now increased four-fold or more. COMMENTS GONE??? Sorry the comments will be back (As soon as we can fix them!)
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  written by markm, February 19, 2008
Linux is not ready for the desktop at this stage. Driver support is still lacking. I tried 5 distros trying to get a wireless PCI card to work even used ndiswrapper to no avail. Many suggestions were made to buy x brand of card but I shouldn't have to go and find another card I should be able to use the card I have.Having to buy a particular network card for a OS is so early 1990s. There are too many of the little things which linux people tend to overlook , they concentrate on the big things, that need to be ironed out these are the things that get under peoples skins. Nobody should be hacking config files to get a 5 button mouse to work properly. It is a stable system but then so are my XP and Vista and OSX systems.
written by Aaron B, February 19, 2008
Victoria recently had a teachers strike citing poor wages as the major driver. Now I read that that a school switches to Vista and Office 2007 after curving the IT budget significantly by the use of Linux. That's right, move to Microsoft so you can "do everything" but forget your pay rise. The students would have used Linux with no problems, it is the teachers who seem to be stuck in the stone age and so should their pay scales.
written by jhansonxi, February 19, 2008
The difference is that instead of some manufacturers not supporting your OS at all (Linux) instead they refuse to release drivers for new versions of Windows (Vista) in order to force you to buy a new card. The same applies to softmodems and video cards. Once a device is supported on Linux by an open-source driver it generally is supported forever.
written by ItSupportNotes, February 19, 2008
markm - I am sure there was NIC that you could have purchased for less that the price of Windows XP or Vista. Also Most Users do not require a 5 button mouse.
Aaron B - That was exactly my point in the last part of my first post. Linux is Ready. ;-) written by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, February 19, 2008
The article says that the inability to get laptops with anything other than Windows was what finally triggered the move away from Linux. And yet laptops with Linux preinstalled are just now becoming more common--the Asus Eee being an obvious example.
written by The Truth, February 19, 2008
Soooooo, Linux met their technical requirments. Bailed them out of their budget problems, and infact allowed them to provide students with more PC's (oh I could tell you tales of MS licensing forcing 3-4 kids to share a PC). Was much easier to administer. Improved their security and freed them from the Windows worlds virus plague. Gave the students access to a world of software that every family could afford. Didn't deny any child the right to an education because their parents had too choose between paying for proprietary software and a new computer to meet it's requirements, or putting food on the table. Gave them control over file formats. And the students obviously prefered to use Linux.
And they threw all these advantages away because some mysterious people whined about their home PC's, and spewed some nonsensical rhetoric about "everyone uses Windows" and 'I could do everything (cure cancer, world hunger, get haxor3d) but we are stuck with Linux' (Note how no factual argument was used against the Linux deployment, classic MS at work). This reeks of an agenda from management, and back room deals. I hope the next time, and everytime there's no money in Melbourne for books, enough computers, more teachers to reduce classroom overcrowding, school repairs, preventing school closures, etc. Someone has the brass to wave around for EVERYONE to see, the bill from Microsoft, the draconian terms of the Microsoft School Agreement, the costs of upgrading hardware to support Vista, and the luducrous list of what the School Agreement requires they pay Microsoft for. written by The Truth, February 19, 2008
Soooooo, Linux met their technical requirments. Bailed them out of their budget problems, and infact allowed them to provide students with more PC's (oh I could tell you tales of MS licensing forcing 3-4 kids to share a PC). Was much easier to administer. Improved their security and freed them from the Windows worlds virus plague. Gave the students access to a world of software that every family could afford. Gave them control over file formats. And the students obviously prefered to use Linux.
And they threw all these advantages away because some mysterious people whined about their home PC's, and spewed some nonsensical rhetoric about 'everyone uses Windows' and 'I could do everything (cure cancer, world hunger, get haxor3d) but we are stuck with Linux' This reeks of an agenda from management, and back room deals. I hope the next time, and everytime there's no money in Melbourne for books, enough computers, more teachers to reduce classroom overcrowding, school repairs, preventing school closures, etc. Someone has the brass to wave around for EVERYONE to see, the bill from Microsoft, the draconian terms of the Microsoft School Agreement, the costs of upgrading hardware to support Vista, and the luducrous list of what the School Agreement requires they pay Microsoft for. written by madscientist, February 19, 2008
What I read from this story is that there are numerous computer-illiterate teachers who had been reared on Microsoft products. These teachers refuse to learn (and man, you can bet they can't teach either) so they insist on a Microsoft-only shop. What are bets they only parrot what they've been trained to do: click here, click there, reboot. You can see the insidious effects of Microsoft's advertising here; over 15 years of anti-competitive practices is really paying off now.
written by on the fence, February 19, 2008
My reading of the article was that the Linux machines had been replaced with dual-boot Apple Macs, which had to be identical in setup to the laptops, which must therefore also be Apples. Why so much talk about Windows and no mention of OSX and Apple's long-standing policy of getting into schools?
As a user of both Linux and Vista I prefer XP, but I guess Vista is the future of Windows and will eventually be fixed. And having tried Linux on the Asus Eee, those little things like not supporting current WiFi encryption standards stopped it in its tracks. A good gadget at $199 in the US, but way overpriced and over hyped here when full laptops start at $650. Linux and Open Office have a great future, but in a commercial environment all the little gaps that IT people breeze over lead to far more dollars in lost productivity than the cost of MS OEM licences on a new machine. At the end of the day, non-IT professionals need to be able to plug in their prefered mouse, run the applications that do the job they need, and just get on with it without having to overcome hurdles that they have no understanding of. written by CameraGeek, February 20, 2008
I'll believe that Linux is "ready for the desktop" when I can walk into the local store and get to choose between boxes of popular software titles that differ only by whether the label reads "For Windows" or "For Linux".
written by Taiyoryu, February 20, 2008
@CameraGeek
An advantage of Linux, BSD, et al. is that for almost every commercial piece of software there tends to be an open source alternative, arguably better in some respects. (http://www.osalt.com/) Often this software is easily installed thru what's called a package manager from a centralized repository accessible through the OS. Downloading the software sure beats trekking to your local B&M;store. As a bonus, you get timely updates for all your installed software and not just the OS itself. With Wine (http://www.winehq.org/) now approaching it's 1.0 release, Linux will potentially end up having better backwards compatibility than Vista. That's not to say native, commercial Linux apps aren't desired (c'mon Adobe it's about time you release a Linux version), but the fact that software publishers only release Windows versions isn't as large a hurdle anymore. written by JC, February 20, 2008
I agree, more Linux ready software available from retail would be great. BUT the great part about ubuntu is that you never actually have to buy ANY software. The only software I've even been tempted to purchase is Cedega (Enables PC games in Linux - Sometimes) and Nero For Linux. Other than the game support 99% of what you need is there. Office is only necessary for people who do extreme coding within excel or word. The other problem is that no one educates people on what an OS really is, why would they, they pay MS to remove the question...
written by trev, February 20, 2008
Actually I prefer my kids see them all to some extent. Whats wrong with a mix of Linux, Windows, and OSX, there are good and bad things about each OS.
written by Avrum, February 20, 2008
When administrators will have to spend time handling viruses and when software upgrades will always involve more memory and disk space, management will still justify their decision. Supposedly nobody gets fired for specifying Windows. Best of luck with viruses, root kits and nameless malware. School computers usually have plenty of those.
written by Martin00001, February 20, 2008
"Office is only necessary for people who do extreme coding within excel or word."
As we all know, this is where coding gurus and hackers alike spend most of their time... written by Frank123, February 20, 2008
For the poster who had problems with wi-fi and Linux. This isn't a Linux issue, this is a manufacturer issue. Most hardware purchased for XP or Vista requires software/driver to be installed before it can be used. This driver is provided by the mfg of the product. The same holds true for linux, a driver is required, but most manufacturers won't release linux versions of their drivers (although this is slowly changing) or they won't release the source code so a Linux driver can be made by the open source community. So your argument is null.
I have used ubuntu at home exclusively for the past 3 years on my Dell laptop, my tower, and my htpc running mythtv (damn sweet toy too), and the newest edition is our Asus Eee PC. In rare cases I have had driver issues, with wi-fi and mainboards with newer chipsets. This is usually resolved quickly by the open source community. that aside, I love ubuntu, it just works, no nags, no popups, no virus', and a repository of tens of thousands of free software titles. Best of all, not a dime goes to Microsuck. written by Leke, February 20, 2008
So the IT budget got bigger. I wonder if it was because they saved so much money using Linux over the years.
written by The Truth, February 20, 2008
'At the end of the day, non-IT professionals need to be able to plug in their prefered mouse, run the applications that do the job they need, and just get on with it without having to overcome hurdles that they have no understanding of.'
I hope that mouse and those applications are Vista compatible (would that qualify as a 'hurdle') ;-). written by Mark, February 20, 2008
or lack there of is always trotted out by the MS crowd as the reason they cannot use Linux amongst other feeble excuses although personally I've not really run into the issue.
The driver problem, if it really exist to the extent some would have you believe has nothing to do with Linux and everything to do with manufacturers. There exists a program http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view to which all manufacturers have access that allows them to have Linux drivers written for free, hell the dev's are even prepared to sign NDA's so the no driver problem is created by hardware companies, not the Linux community. Someone explain to me why any hardware company would not take advantage of this resource, I'll give you two guesses. written by Outta here, February 20, 2008
I put Ubuntu onto a separate disk in my system and lived on it for 2 to 3 months. By then I was so fed up with all the failings like Firefox dimming then freezing my system so I had to do a hard reboot or the fact that the Flash player did exactly that, flashed my monitor so hard bright and dim I had to do another hard reset to get that to stop. All the latest "drivers" and programs were apparently installed yet that's what I got. I forced myself to live through this stuff to allow it to settle down with updates etc but that never happened. Now I've replaced the linux install with Vista! I dislike Microsoft with a vengence but have to admit everything works under Vista with minimal messing around. I've been in the computer business since 1972 so have seen my share of OS's but for all that experience linux for me was a disaster. Thanks but I'll pass. I fully expect you linux propeller heads will have lots of responses but at the end of the day, that's who loves linux, the propeller heads.
written by Mark, February 20, 2008
Outta here, if you've been in the industry since 1972 and are unable to quickly and easily solve a couple of trivial issues (of which I have never experienced on any distro) I would suggest the following;
a) you are not being truthful in your claimed experience or b) get out of the industry, you don't have the aptitude. written by Joe Ch, February 20, 2008
firstly, firefox probably releases new versions sooner than your distro updates. Your argument about it being fully updated doesn't quite hold up. Also, FF3 is known to fix many issues, Linux and Windows alike. Just because you're having a problem in Linux doesn't make it Linux's fault.
Secondly, Adobe's support of Flash on Linux is subpar, at best. It's not even updated to the latest version, and eats copious amounts of CPU, if it works correctly at all. However, Google is sponsoring work to get Flash 8 working in Wine. After all that, there really isn't any advantage in Windows anymore. written by JP, February 20, 2008
@Joe Ch: Your comment on Adobe's support of Flash on Linux is blatantly false. A quick check on Adobe's website shows that both Linux and Windows versions of Flash are numbered 9.0.115, with 64bit systems lacking support in both platforms.
Borrowing a line from yourself, "Adobe probably releases new versions sooner than your distro updates." written by Hamish, February 21, 2008
I wonder if they actually considered the kids in the equation? ("Think of the children!!!"), or was it driven completely by the teachers lack of ability?
If the kids were happy to use the linux based machines, were they actually consulted about the decision to replace them with non-linux machines? Hamish written by Oscar Random, February 21, 2008
In order to be wifi compatible use SimplyMepis. Almost all wifi cards work at the first intent with this Debian/Kubuntu descendant, linux distribution.
written by K12Linux, February 21, 2008
Apparently email addresses such as
This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it
are not valid email addresses. At least that's what the itwire.com comments system tells me.
written by Paul_B, February 21, 2008
CameraGeek has a point. I'd like to start a business packaging open source software and selling it in retail chains for $9.95 to $29.95, with an included booklet on installation and operation. The booklet can even explain where to download the latest version or install it from package managers in popular linux distributions, in case the included CD is not up to date. The fact is, Windows has the mindshare in large part because when you go to the store, you see rows of shelves filled with software that says "Works with Windows" on the box. If half those shelves were filled with software that said "Works with Linux", people would begin to see they have a choice, especially if accompanied with a few models of PCs with Linux factory installed sitting on the shelves, as is beginning to happen with Walmart, Dell, and Sears. It doesn't matter that people can download the software for free if they don't know it exists in the first place. Also, people don't mind paying for the box, CD and booklet. If they did, then downloadable freeware for Windows would enjoy a greater percentage of the market than commercial packaged sofware.
Also, I wonder where that fourfold increase in IT budget came from. Could it be that the it budget increase came from an infusion of cash from Microsoft, or the Bill and Gloria Gates foundation? Perhaps contingent on it's being spent on computers with Windows and Office installed? I doubt the savings and efficiencies from using Linux for those years was actually something the IT department wanted to lose. And based on the article, the source of the increased budget is a mystery. Lastly, I wish iTWire would stop updating my browser screen and wiping out my comment before I get a chance to post it. As a workaround, I had to write this in notepad and paste it. written by another IT school manager, February 21, 2008
It's really because many teachers have shaky IT skills, and tend to be a conservative group. They haven't heard the Open Source message. There is huge interest amongst many of my more enlightened students many of whom boot into Ubuntu CDs at every opportunity.
written by Alex Zaharov- Reutt, February 21, 2008
I'm all for Linux being a viable alternative to Windows and Mac, but if a school is set up with Windows or Mac PCs, and students are bringing in Ubuntu CD's to launch from, could they be bypassing any content or other restrictions in place on the existing machines for whatever reason?
Usually school or business computers have some kind of restrictions placed on them to stop students from visiting specific sites or running certain types of software. It just struck me that, if students are booting into Ubuntu instead of what's already there, it might not always be for the lily-white pure reason of preferring the Ubuntu Linux environment over Windows. These are students we are talking about here. I'm sure some are using it in preference, but I can't believe that all are, especially the 'enlightened' ones that really know what they are doing with their technology. It might pay to investigate what the students are doing! Once again, the students could be using Ubuntu boot CDs for the purest of reasons, but it still makes me wonder... Cheers Alex. written by xutre, February 21, 2008
Hmmm, Baptist Grammar School; is it a private school?? What has changed over the years besides the new found wealth?? Has there been a gradual turnover of staff, and in which direction has the average teacher age gone?? Perhaps you can also enlighten us as to the application and learning advantages the students will have with the new arrangement when compared with the previous one?
As teachers have become more technology-conversant and technology-friendly over the years, have they become more daring about putting their opinions forward, not realising that technology has not stood still in the interim? In my mind, they remain technologically staid and naive and have simply become the new pawns- a flock of sheep in a field of corporate marketing-hype and BS. It stupefies me as to how blind and irresponsible they appear to be to the children they teach; what after all, is their vocational incentive to becoming teachers... a desire to help a child become a better person? Tutoring is surely a matter of opening their minds (and their curiosity), not about opening their books and learning to recite. I perceive a new technology prosperity arising from those countries currently adopting OLPC's X0; not a moment too soon I'm thinking, and educational sectors of developed countries should watch with interest. written by The Truth, February 21, 2008
It just struck me that, if students are booting into Ubuntu instead of what's already there, it might not always be for the lily-white pure reason of preferring the Ubuntu Linux environment over Windows.
Ummmmm, the article quite plainly stated that those machines had both Linux and XP installed. The kids obviously preferred using the Linux 'installs' over XP. In the future please read before you troll. written by A N other, February 21, 2008
Hmm as you can see the telling point is the IT budget was increased four fold
and I wonder how much more hidden costs there are. It's a shame that precious resource money is allowed to line the pockets of a convicted monopolist. And yes there is a learning curve with Linux but if your IT manager cannot handle a current Linux network then they really should be selling flowers as they have a very poor and limited skill base. written by Alex Zaharov- Reutt, February 21, 2008
Hey, Mr 'The Truth'
How about YOU read before you post? I was referring to the comment above mine. I guess I should have been more specific, but it's a pity you were so QUICK to judge before responding to my comment, eh? Here's the quote I was responding to, it's directly above mine. Why not Linux in schools written by another IT school manager, February 21, 2008 It's really because many teachers have shaky IT skills, and tend to be a conservative group. They haven't heard the Open Source message. There is huge interest amongst many of my more enlightened students many of whom boot into Ubuntu CDs at every opportunity. written by ricegf, February 21, 2008
@camerageek: 'I'll believe that Linux is "ready for the desktop" when I can walk into the local store and get to choose between boxes of popular software titles that differ only by whether the label reads "For Windows" or "For Linux".'
So, you'll believe that a *free* operating system with tens of thousands of *free* applications that can be installed at the click of a mouse is "ready" when you're forced to go into a local store, choose from a hundred or so applications, pay big bucks, take a *box* home, and shove a CD into your computer - just like your dad did in the 1990's? May I recommend http://www.ubuntu.com, and welcome to the 21st century, my friend. written by Ngoato Sekwati, February 22, 2008
I put in a kids DVD into my XP machine and it works straight away without any fiddling. On my newly installed Ubuntu Gusty system I install all the restricted drivers that I am told to install to enable DVD's to be read, but still Totem refuses.
Colleagues acces an HP laserjet 2300 printer which is connected to the XP. I would now have to alter all their setups should I connect it to my Gusty box. It is easier for me to run Thunderbird, Open Office and Opera on Windows rather than going and trying to sort out all the free vs restricted issues that make Linux so difficult to use. In an ideal world, there is no doubt that free software should be better. Unfortunately our world is not ideal. written by Karl O. Pinc, February 22, 2008
@Outta here
Are you administering your Linux box like you administer your Microsoft Windows box? Are you installing drivers and other software from hither and yon or are you installing the software that comes with your distro? Are you doing your own system integration, ensuring that there's no version or library incompatibilities, or are you letting your distro do the work for you? Are you installing closed-source binary-only drivers supplied by manufacturers that may or may not continue to be supported over time or are you using the software your distro supplies and supports? Administer Linux the hodge-podge Microsoft Windows way and you'll get the same results, a fragile and unstable system that's difficult to secure, breaks when upgraded, requires time and effort to maintain, and eventually turns to muck and must be wiped and reinstalled. Choose a good distro and stay within the bounds it sets. That's the secret to a secure, stable, maintenance free, and easily upgraded Linux experience. Yes, this means there may be limitations. I want a pony too. Of course, you could become an expert and make your own rules but that's not for everyone. The effortless choice is to be patient. You'd be surprised at what, and how quickly, the Open Source Fairy will deliver new software to the Internet near you. written by Edm, February 22, 2008
As a high school computer teacher, I can confirm that computer-illiterate teachers, as well as corrupt school administrators, corrupt education ministry bureaucrats (bribed by M$), are indeed the problem. Having run a linux lab for years, while windoze labs had constant problems, I can tell you that windoze labs are a tremendous waste of money. Want to see a school district (yes, an ENTIRE school district, not just one school) that is competent and knows what it is doing? Check out school district 73 in British Columbia, Canada, using linux for years in ALL of its elementary schools, etc. Demonstrates the difference between competence and corrupt, illiterate, bumbling schools and officials. Check it out here:
http://www.sd73.bc.ca/district...ducation/ written by ricegf, February 22, 2008
Ngoato Sekwati, I certainly don't intend to dismiss your own experiences, but XP didn't come with DVD drivers last I checked (which wasn't recently; the newest reference I could find on Microsoft's site was http://www.microsoft.com/windo...ril15.mspx).
I suspect your positive DVD experience may have come from having XP *pre-installed*, and thus having the hardware vendor also pre-install your DVD player for you. That's indeed the easiest way to get DVD players on a computer. Happily, if you purchase Ubuntu pre-installed, you'll have exactly the same experience (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/133). :-) In any event, best wishes with your OS of choice. written by Markus McLaughlin, February 22, 2008
At least have a dual boot Windows XP computer with Ubuntu or Fedora, DO NOT use Vista, wait for Windows 7 and dual boot between that and some form of very stable linux OS. We can't completely abandon linux just because some IT guy was able to bring back XP. I like XP for media and games but linux is perfect for everything else. If you have to use XP, get PRO, and make sure you continue to use open source software on it, be it OpenOffice, GIMP, Audacity, Inkscape, Scribus, Firefox, Thunderbird, etc., open source WILL save you money in the long term. Stop wasting more money on MS Office despite any deals offered. Just a good suggestion from a former Windows User... BTW, I will be using Fedora 9 on a virtual machine as soon as I get my iMac, I think virtual machines are better than dual booting, IMHO!
written by ajmal, February 25, 2008
To be honest Windows is probably for those who cares about 1)easier Networking 2)Playing games and entertainment.and who doest care about money.
So,if u can take little effort then linux is your's without restriction. I like to say there are three to five choices.First ubuntu,Fedora,Mepis(cost $0).order cds from shipit.ubuntu.com,Mepis can do all multimedia stuff without any drivers issues,then there are others like SUSE and Xandros,Linspire(costly not truly open source). written by frank123, February 28, 2008
All you Windoze fanboys whining about how nothing works properly on Linux are so brainwashed you don't even realise it. You have been assimilated by the MS Borg and are all collectively inept. ID 10 T errors, please reboot.
Linux is Open Source, and for the most part only contains software that fall under the Open Source classification after you have installed a particular flavour on your pc. But unlike Windows, you are free to install anything and everything else you want. Sometimes this means educating yourself just a little bit by doing a little googling to find out how to get hardware that is not directly supported on linux by the manufacturer of the product to work. You wouldn't have this issue if the Mfg's would just make a Linux driver, just like they make a Windows driver. Until then, the Linux users must rely on very smart, intelligent, and unselfish developers that write drivers for unsupported devices and release them free of charge to the Linux community. Try finding that kind of online community support in the Windows world, where you are required to dish out money left right and center for half-@ssed, poorly written, bloatware that requires 3 times the resources than a linux equivalent. written by Merav, March 10, 2008
I'm writing a recommendation paper for Boston Public schools about implementing linux systems as part of their computer education.
I'm only writing this paper as part of a class I'm taking (not for real), but I was never able to find "negative stories" about linux, 'til now. so thanks! Tell us what you think! better to paste your comment - this page will refresh every 15 minutes
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I am not familiar with StarOffice but I can say that OpenOffice, which came with Ubuntu, seems to have no problems with MS Office Docs.
People need to understand that when in the work place a computer is powerful tool. The operating system running on a workstation does not matter; what does is if they can get the work done. Well for 7 years they used Linux and their work got done. They now took the saving from using Linux and gave it right back to Microsoft in the form of Vista licenses.