Tags See All Tags

Storm. Teacup. People who get wound up about this sort of thing need to take a serious dose of common sense, washed down with pragmatism.

If there was a licencing issue involved, it might be something that needed to be dealt with, but come on -- they're moaning about calling it Ubuntu? Yikes. Tell them to go write some code or something instead of fretting over nothing.

Seriously, there's no problem with what Dell is doing here. If I went out and bought a copy of LinDVD (assuming it were possible), and installed it on my own Ubuntu box, would it cease to be Ubuntu? Of course not.

Why shouldn't Dell give their customers extra value. PC Manufacturers bundle similar commercial apps with XP/Vista. If you buy a PC with a DVD drive you expect to be able to play (encryted) DVDs on it. Ubuntu doesn't become a new distro just because some extra software is installed. We should praise Dell for making an effort to promote Linux, not knock them.

I appreciate your article and the follow-up comments others have written supporting Dell's recent decision to provide a DVD playback solution that gives those of us in the US interested in a "legal" DVD solution a choice.

I applaud Dell for listening to customers and making their Ubuntu offerings "on par" with other OS offerings where they already license similar DVD playback solutions from vendors like Corel/InterVideo and CyberLink. I'm sure it costs them money to license this in their customers' behalf and I applaud their efforts and commitment to responding to our needs.

It's attitudes like those expressed by Limulus that continue to try and drive a stake in the heart of Linux.
Would you buy a car without wheels to drive to work because of a philosophical issue about the tires?
Distros like Sabayon don't have any problem about giving users out of the box functionality and that is a good thing.
The sooner the community gets over this the better it will be for Linux and the Linux users and isn't that what it's supposed to be about anyway? The user experience?

I have come to appreciate that I am (very much apparently) in the minority on this, but my main point is that LinDVD is being bundled into the hardware cost and purchasers CANNOT opt-out of buying it. "ms" commented using an analogy to a car by saying "Would you buy a car without wheels to drive to work because of a philosophical issue about the tires?" But that's not applicable here; Ubuntu will run just fine without encrypted DVD playback. A better analogy would be 'Would you be upset about buying a car from a dealer that required you to also buy an aftermarket sound system from him even if you did not want one?' but even that does not fully encompass the issues I have with what Dell is doing.

Why is this a issue? Not all software for Linux is FOSS. In fact we can probably use more non-free Linux packages (c'mon Adobe). By buying LinDVD Dell is supporting a company which is commited to developing software for Linux and there is probably some trickle-down effect down to the OS level. Either way, it's a good thing.

People who have issue with this just shouldn't buy Dell computers (and probably don't). It's not like Dell is forcing this on anyone, they are doing what's they think is best for their customers. It's the same issue as with offering only Windows as the OS option, you are stuck with paying the cost of licence regardless whether you use it or not. Is it fair? No. Is is something to lose sleep about? No.

I see no legal or ethical problem with Dell choosing to add this software. I also think it will be good for Dell and good for Linux adoption.

The important point to note for those who object is: This does not take choice away from anyone. 1)They can uninstall it if they don't want it, just like other software that comes installed on computers (although presumably they are then paying for something they don't want); 2)they can buy preinstalled proprietary-free Ubuntu from other vendors such as System76; 3) they can install Ubuntu themselves on any computer they want.

In other words, this is one more choice that consumers have; the more choices the better!

I tend to agree with the previous comments. DVD playback is one task that Ubuntu can't perform without non-free codecs/software, so Dell is (probably) doing the right thing here.

What happens though when the user receives updates, or upgrades their Ubuntu. Will the non-free package break their system, causing harm to the Ubuntu or Linux reputation?

Linux must offer comparable functionality to windows to become mainstream without compromise to the open/community and standards based philosopy. The ability to play an encrypted DVD out of box is a critical success factor and the only way to to that is to deal with the rights holder as Dell has done. Value add does not violate the spirit of Linux.

I agree with Limulus that it is the way Dell has done this that is the issue. My understanding is that it is illegal to decrypt a DVD without licence only in the US and possibly Australia (since the adoption of the US FTA).

By factorng the licence cost into the overall cost of the h/w s/w package then the rest of the world is being forced to buy something they don't need to pay for and those who never wish to play a DVD (eg corporate/government desktop).

It is this incremental packaging of "value" that has created the Microsoft elephant and it could happen again with Linux.

This is not a technical issue, it is a pricing issue and should have a pricing solution such as single code base with regional pricing variation.

"Forced to pay" is a completely bogus issue - we're all "forced" to buy things we don't need all the time. I could do without the cupholders in my car, various features in Word (eg, table of contents), and so on. Don't take sugar in your coffee? The cafe will charge you the same price. Don't want the classified ad section of a newspaper? Tough. Don't use the stairmaster at the gym? No discount for you. No kids at school? Your taxes are the same regardless.

Nobody is forced to buy one of those Dell systems. Goods and services come in bundles, and you pick the one you think suits you best.

Like others have suggested, selling a computer with a DVD drive but not the software needed to play DVDs would be a very questionable practice.

I'll stick with sudo apt-get install libdvdcss2 legal here or not, come and get me DMCA. I don't have a problem with Dell providing LinDVD on their boxes though if it makes it easy for the masses.

Unless someone is going to seriously discuss the licensing aspect of bundling proprietary software with Ubuntu on a particular piece of hardware, this is all just noise.

Dell "forces" people to buy specific apps on top of ALL their systems. Windows or otherwise. They "force" you to buy Vista rather than XP for certain models.

If there's an issue here it's whether what Dell has done conflicts with the Ubuntu license, which to my reading it doesn't. Although that can be argued either way.

It does conflict with the general spirit of GNU/GPL software, which wouldn't include a proprietary app as part of the distro. But arguably you're not buying the Linux distro anyway since you can get that free, so... what exactly are you paying for here... just the hardware?

Again, someone provide a cogent argument about how this violates Ubuntu's licensing, otherwise Dell is just doing its usual packaging tactics, just this time with something that has functionality rather than the scads of bloatware they put on Windows OS machines.

I know that Mandriva has been including LinDVD in its Powerpack editions for some time. Though that particular package includes other commercial software as well, such as Sun's StarOffice. And they have a separate "Free" package for FOSS purists.

I don't see any issue here. If you don't want it, don't buy it.

You mention early on in the article that the flash plugin (aptly named flashplugin-nonfree in the repository) would not be a problem with "open-source purists." A few things. 1, open-source advocates are usually not purists. Those who are refer to that sort of thing as "free software." 2. Free, when speaking in the context of "free software", refers to freedom, not price. A true free software purist would have just as much of a problem with bundling the flash plugin as with bundling the DVD player- neither one is free software, regardless of the fact that it costs you nothing to download flash.

What my real problem is is this- when I buy or build a Windows box, I have to download and install Flash, and if there's a DVD player in it, I have to download the codecs for that as well. Why is it that Linux must somehow be held to a higher standard, where it has to just *work*, or it's not a suitable OS? Trust me, I've built my fair share of Windows boxes, and it takes a lot less work to get a Linux box from blank to business than it does for a comparable Windows box. (Think Word, Photoshop, anti-virus, firewall, Windows Update, activation, WGA, the list goes on. Compare that to a paltry few apt-get install's and Linux wins hands-down.)

Why does Linux have to include these codecs before it's "mainstream" when the "mainstream" OS itself doesn't?

I both agree with most of you and Limulus.
Of course DELL wants to sell a complete system, as user-friendly as possible, but the entire idea about GNU is the freedom. It is not about the price, it is the propriarity part that bothers me. The idea of Ubuntu is that they want to leave the freedom to the user. Freedom to use/modify and redistribute the (modified) software (check out this article: http://itmanagement.earthweb.c...hp/3717476).
Of course this is not always compatible (at this moment) with the desire of "the average user", so therefore I do not really bother DELL selling their modified UBUNTU. But please don't throw away the gain of Linux that easily. Fight for your freedom!
P.S.: I dont know about the video codecs, but a free alternative to Flash player is available: Gash....
Maarten

Has it been conclusively established that there is ANY cost passed to ANY consumer in this arrangement? Or are zealots jumping to conclusions in the abscence of good data to make more religious arguments?

Do we have any confirmation that there is yet a price on this? The site says "Downloadable by manufacturers for evaluation". Is this a free trial? And if not, do we have conclusive proof that the price has been passed to the buyer? It could be that the price is trivial and eaten by Dell.

And, even if it's not. What other reasons would one have to buy a DVD player, outside of an utterly, extremely small amount of FLOSS software distributed in such a fashion, other than to watch movies? And if so, do not most FLOSS users want to maintain the law? To counteract the "highbrow pirate" stereotype? Then the only solution is a legally liscenced way for you to watch them, which Dell has done. I expect many FLOSS religious zealots will say they merely have the DVD drive for putting their coffee mug on while they live thier lives in emacs, not for watching movies ;-)

I call shenanigans on that. You can't have it both ways ;-)

Let's at least have the details of the deal before we sign death warrants, have Roy start boycottdell.com, have RMS go nuts, and have the religious zealots slashdot this to death ;-)

I agree. This is a step forward for mainstream acceptance. You and me can install what is needed, but for most people they want it to just work when they purchase it. They have other things going on in their lives, other hobbies and interests and have no time or inclination to find out what to install. Yes, it only takes a few mouse clicks, but they are not going to do it.

Stardog inquired:

>Has it been conclusively established that there is ANY cost passed to ANY consumer in this arrangement? Or are zealots jumping to conclusions in the abscence of good data to make more religious arguments?<

As per http://direct2dell.com/one2one...38924.aspx

[Note that these ISO images DO NOT CONTAIN LinDVD, as LinDVD is a non-free application that is included in the cost of a system purchased with our Ubuntu 7.10 factory-installation. We'll make information available on how this application can be purchased after the holidays.]

(I did my homework before jumping up and down rather than just 'jumping to conclusions' ;)

>What other reasons would one have to buy a DVD player, outside of an utterly, extremely small amount of FLOSS software distributed in such a fashion, other than to watch movies?<

Amusingly enough, as per the same URL:

[We are now placing a DVD restore ISO image on the user's desktop. By burning this ISO to a disc and then booting to it, customers can restore their operating system to the exact state in which they received it. This now gives customers a second option to restore their OS, in addition to the reinstallation partition already located on the hard drive.]

Also, while libre software is still not generally distributed in this format (though I have used the Linux Gamers Live DVD: http://live.linux-gamers.net/?s=download) it probably will be in the not too distant future (Ubuntu is running out of space inside its 700 MB CDs BTW).

Additionally, it appears that Dell is (again) not offering a choice in the matter; all the choices of optical drives that the Ubuntu systems come with can read DVDs (there are no CD-ROM only choices).

And don't forget data backup for the DVD burner options BTW.

(Amusing aside: Personally I don't much care for watching DVDs on my computer; they look better on a TV IMHO :)

I'm not against them selling LinDVD though; I just don't want it to be bundled into the cost of the hardware.

>And if so, do not most FLOSS users want to maintain the law?<

I think you mean 'abide by'; most people who immerse themselves in software libre soon realize what a nasty state the law is in regards to DMCA, patents, etc. and certainly would like to change the laws :)

That's besides the point though; I'm arguing based on a freedom principle, the same way the police can't search your house without a warrant if they don't have probable cause to enter immediately. They could argue 'But an innocent person has nothing to hide and so should have no problem letting us come in whenever we want.' The reply of course is that an innocent person should NOT to be searched at all.

But I'm getting on a tangent; let the users buy the software voluntarily. Dell could make buying it the default option, Dell could have a popup warning that these systems won't play DVDs out of the box and they won't play DVDs legally (in the US) if you don't use LinDVD, but just let me choose to opt out if I don't want it! Most users probably would buy it anyway. Its just like with Dell's Windows systems; if I'm a Linux user and don't want Windows, I don't want to be forced to buy a Windows machine only to blank the HD to put Ubuntu on it (that has historically been called paying the 'Microsoft tax'). This is basically the same thing, only with smaller sums of money and to a less hated company ;)

You're not paying anything like a 'Microsoft tax', you're paying for support.

If you want complete control over what you have on your system, reinstall your OS of choice, or even better, build your own PC.

Why should Dell have to offer support for their hardware if they're not allowed to customise the software inside it?

If you aren't happy with them adding a couple of things to the base install, don't buy a Dell. You aren't a part of their market, so stop chiding them for trying to offer a better solution to their end users.

It comes bundled with every Mandriva Linux CD or DVD. I simply uninstall it, or if I remember, don't let it install in the first place, and link to the PLF repositories, and install the Open Source versions of the CODECs. Anyone buying the Dell machines with pre installed Ubuntu, should be able to do the same, and link to what ever repository Ubuntu use for the Free Open Source versions of the CODECs.

If you don't want to use proprietary software don't, just get rid of it.

Note: All instances of the word "free" in the following are as in "freedom".

I think it's great that people are making a fuss. The point of the free software movement is not to get everyone using Linux no matter what. It is to get people to use free software for their own good. There may be cases where the only solution is proprietary (DVD playback, unfortunately) but the act of bundling proprietary software with a system whose main advantage is to be free should be met with some resistance every time. It's starting down a slippery slope to bundle DVD software. The next step would be mp3 playback software. But there is a perfectly good ogg audio codec that we should be promoting for the same reasons as Linux. We shouldn't restrict freedom to the world of computing but aim to spread it to other industries too. This is already beginning to happen thanks to the temptation to use Linux in various hardware including media players and the "freedom infecting" nature of the GPL license.

I'm not saying that Dell should not have bundled the DVD player but I am glad that some people made a fuss. These "zealots" will at least stick to the principles that are the main reason we have such high quality free software to enjoy today.

And frankly, exactly the same arguments apply to the proprietary flash player.

Anyone that gets their panties in a twist about stuff like this should take a step back and look at the bog picture. Maybe even have a few shots of their favorite alcohol too. In order for Linux to exist and actually be an enjoyable experience to those trying it for the first time it needs niceties. Particularly those that allow DVD, MP3 and Flash playback. Simply in order to compete with the other OSs out there Linux has to emulate their usability as best as possible.

If someone feels strongly about having DVD playback software preinstalled why not purchase the no operating system computer that Dell sales. Some one who knows of this issue and cares would have the experience to install what ever operating system they wanted and the software that they wanted on it. The nontechnical person would most likely want this software preinstalled. If we want the vendors to better serve us who run Linux we need more people using Linux. That means we need more nontechnical people on board. So their needs have to be meet too.

The giants' buddies are not for a moment trying to do the Linux communities any favours here. The capitalists are only in this for one reason...you guessed it, the personal rewards, (stuff the rest of us).
And most who buy a Dell computer, probably don't ever consider any more about it than whether or not it works, let alone what OS is on it.
I am a relatively new Linux user and I am sad to see that there are so many maybe being sucked in by this.
Free is free, and not free is not free...what part of that is hard to understand?
You all have a nice day :)

...oh and by the way, Dell is only the first rat off the sinking ship :)

There is nothing wrong with this at all. However the concern about updating raised in in earlier post is valid. As long as the proprietary package is subject to good standards and is updated so that it doesn't break something else or the other way around then i see no problem. Also alot of these proprietary packages are nothing but rootkits....so that's a concern but people want what people want. Someone also raised the point that Linux is held to a higher standard than Windows. Taking linux to fully functional from a scratch install is certainly easier than Windows but Windows comes preloaded from the factory with everything it needs so most people never realize what's involved.

Well you guys seem to have shown your colours by my 2 posts being lost in cyberspace immediately on posting.
I won't bother with you again.
You all have a nice day :)

apology for my last comment, I beat the refresh to it unfortunately :)
cheers all...

I keep reading terms like "zealots", "religious", and "purist" in relation to FOSS advocates, and when those types of terms pop up, chances are we have a strawman somewhere in the vicinity.

Dell can do what it wants, as long as it abides by the law and follows the GPL. But thank goodness for folks who hop up and down about proprietary software. Without them we would continue to be at the mercy of software corporations like microsoft. They may not be 100% correct, but they balance out the masses who would happily sell their soul in a EULA as long as they could view youtube videos and play world of warcraft.

What I'm saying is that there comes a time to compromise, but we need to remember it's a compromise. There needs to remain a bit of conflict, a certain amount of pressure towards free software. The FOSS "purists" maybe should not get their way all the time, but they should by no means be silent. The whole "shut up and let us have our toys!" mentality people are expressing here is what got us in the situation we are currently in.

Dont complain about what Dell is doing. Just dont. While I agree with your point, both in theory and in fact, it is neither practical nor realistic. If YOU want to write a non proprietary driver that can mimic all the things that LinDVD can do, thus allowing the same value and support to Dell customers, then PLEASE DO! Otherwise, your comments are rubbish.

Interestingly enough, I agree with almost everything that almost everybody wrote here, in some way or another... it is a complex issue.

It is good people make a fuss, and it is also bad... For different reasons, as people said earlier.

'What other reasons would one have to buy a DVD player, outside of an utterly, extremely small amount of FLOSS software distributed in such a fashion, other than to watch movies?'

Well, I myself have never watched a full DVD on my desktop (TV much more comfy, but I did break the DMCA in my Linux boxes...). I have a DVD *writer* to... write data DVDs! I know most people don't, but I DO back up my photos, documents and music at least once a year, preferably twice... And try backing up DSLR raw files (yep, I do shoot them, I think I'm just a freak) using CDs. You can, but you'll get bored changing discs much sooner.

And, Limulus, I suspect Stardog was asking if we know the PRICE paid for the Ubuntu-based computer will be higher than it is now. At least that what I was imagining. Of course they will say they are paying for it, because they must be. If the price to the final user is not higher at all, then so what? It becomes the same as Flash, Acrobat Reader, etc. etc. which are all in the Ubuntu repositories anyway. Of course they cannot let people download the ISO images for free including LinDVD, they would have to pay "per download" licensing or something like that, while I would suspect their current agreement is for software on machines shipped.

All of this talk about Dell's offering finally prompted me to envision this balance Linux and the FOSS community are struggling to achieve.
1. Free as in freedom
2. Free as in cost
3. Legal and ethical
4. Usable and pragmatic

Sheesh, this is going to turn into an article.

Anyway, those four corners are struggling to find a place to _fully_ exist without causing any of the other three any less of a stance. Like AlanM077 said above, this means right now every extreme is pulling for their side to be the anchor in this whole equation. Hopefully soon there will be happy medium but I'm afraid some folks will have their feelings hurt during this journey.

Bundling a legal DVD player might be an effort to close a possible legal problem. If Dell distributes computers without a DVD playback package, the user would have to download libdvdcss2, which can also be used in conjunction with k3b and k9copy to copy DVDs. If Dell distributes a self-contained DVD playback program, then there is no need for the user to download libdvdcss2, and then no chance that the user could break the DMCA.

To view Content... (even the US) it even says why in the DMCA section 1201(f)

Why Stan Beer is so missinformed or needs to spread that myth/FUD I have to wonder.
Or why could he not explain it better?

Still Libdvdcss is also used with VLC & Mplayer on Windows, Mac & BSD systems...

Considering the spirit & intent of that law (DMCA) What about DVDcopy
DVDshrink, DVD Xcopy, Alcohol & various other hardware & software solutions to backup or time/place shift?

LinDVD is a fair solution or an OEM or commercial offering, as with Mandriva, Linspire, CNR etc....

Still libdvdcss is legal and will use that first.....