Since when is Dell Gutsy Gibbon not Ubuntu?

Libdvdcss is Legal...

Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:21:06 -0600

To view Content... (even the US) it even says why in the DMCA section 1201(f) Why Stan Beer is so missinformed or needs to spread that myth/FUD I have to wonder. Or why could he not explain it better? Still Libdvdcss is also used with VLC & Mplayer on Windows, Mac & BSD systems... Considering the spirit & intent of that law (DMCA) What about DVDcopy DVDshrink, DVD Xcopy, Alcohol & various other hardware & software solutions to backup or time/place shift? LinDVD is a fair solution or an OEM or commercial offering, as with Mandriva, Linspire, CNR etc.... Still libdvdcss is legal and will use that first..... - Lazlong

Closing a legal attack?

Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:40:59 -0600

Bundling a legal DVD player might be an effort to close a possible legal problem. If Dell distributes computers without a DVD playback package, the user would have to download libdvdcss2, which can also be used in conjunction with k3b and k9copy to copy DVDs. If Dell distributes a self-contained DVD playback program, then there is no need for the user to download libdvdcss2, and then no chance that the user could break the DMCA. - Chris Lees

All about balance

Sat, 22 Dec 2007 04:04:40 -0600

All of this talk about Dell's offering finally prompted me to envision this balance Linux and the FOSS community are struggling to achieve. 1. Free as in freedom 2. Free as in cost 3. Legal and ethical 4. Usable and pragmatic Sheesh, this is going to turn into an article. Anyway, those four corners are struggling to find a place to _fully_ exist without causing any of the other three any less of a stance. Like AlanM077 said above, this means right now every extreme is pulling for their side to be the anchor in this whole equation. Hopefully soon there will be happy medium but I'm afraid some folks will have their feelings hurt during this journey. - TK

Agree and don't... But go Dell!

Sat, 22 Dec 2007 03:51:23 -0600

Interestingly enough, I agree with almost everything that almost everybody wrote here, in some way or another... it is a complex issue. It is good people make a fuss, and it is also bad... For different reasons, as people said earlier. 'What other reasons would one have to buy a DVD player, outside of an utterly, extremely small amount of FLOSS software distributed in such a fashion, other than to watch movies?' Well, I myself have never watched a full DVD on my desktop (TV much more comfy, but I did break the DMCA in my Linux boxes...). I have a DVD *writer* to... write data DVDs! I know most people don't, but I DO back up my photos, documents and music at least once a year, preferably twice... And try backing up DSLR raw files (yep, I do shoot them, I think I'm just a freak) using CDs. You can, but you'll get bored changing discs much sooner. And, Limulus, I suspect Stardog was asking if we know the PRICE paid for the Ubuntu-based computer will be higher than it is now. At least that what I was imagining. Of course they will say they are paying for it, because they must be. If the price to the final user is not higher at all, then so what? It becomes the same as Flash, Acrobat Reader, etc. etc. which are all in the Ubuntu repositories anyway. Of course they cannot let people download the ISO images for free including LinDVD, they would have to pay "per download" licensing or something like that, while I would suspect their current agreement is for software on machines shipped. - J. Alves

Limulus and others of the FSF mentality

Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:04:52 -0600

Dont complain about what Dell is doing. Just dont. While I agree with your point, both in theory and in fact, it is neither practical nor realistic. If YOU want to write a non proprietary driver that can mimic all the things that LinDVD can do, thus allowing the same value and support to Dell customers, then PLEASE DO! Otherwise, your comments are rubbish. - davemc

Poor, strawman, he must be hurting bad by now

Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:03:39 -0600

I keep reading terms like "zealots", "religious", and "purist" in relation to FOSS advocates, and when those types of terms pop up, chances are we have a strawman somewhere in the vicinity. Dell can do what it wants, as long as it abides by the law and follows the GPL. But thank goodness for folks who hop up and down about proprietary software. Without them we would continue to be at the mercy of software corporations like microsoft. They may not be 100% correct, but they balance out the masses who would happily sell their soul in a EULA as long as they could view youtube videos and play world of warcraft. What I'm saying is that there comes a time to compromise, but we need to remember it's a compromise. There needs to remain a bit of conflict, a certain amount of pressure towards free software. The FOSS "purists" maybe should not get their way all the time, but they should by no means be silent. The whole "shut up and let us have our toys!" mentality people are expressing here is what got us in the situation we are currently in. - AlanM077

apology

Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:00:50 -0600

apology for my last comment, I beat the refresh to it unfortunately :) cheers all... - buffalosoldier

politics

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:58:24 -0600

Well you guys seem to have shown your colours by my 2 posts being lost in cyberspace immediately on posting. I won't bother with you again. You all have a nice day :) - buffalosoldier

pure or puree

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:57:58 -0600

There is nothing wrong with this at all. However the concern about updating raised in in earlier post is valid. As long as the proprietary package is subject to good standards and is updated so that it doesn't break something else or the other way around then i see no problem. Also alot of these proprietary packages are nothing but rootkits....so that's a concern but people want what people want. Someone also raised the point that Linux is held to a higher standard than Windows. Taking linux to fully functional from a scratch install is certainly easier than Windows but Windows comes preloaded from the factory with everything it needs so most people never realize what's involved. - pure or puree

first rat off the ship

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:50:59 -0600

...oh and by the way, Dell is only the first rat off the sinking ship :) - buffalosoldier

The giants' buddies...

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:49:32 -0600

The giants' buddies are not for a moment trying to do the Linux communities any favours here. The capitalists are only in this for one reason...you guessed it, the personal rewards, (stuff the rest of us). And most who buy a Dell computer, probably don't ever consider any more about it than whether or not it works, let alone what OS is on it. I am a relatively new Linux user and I am sad to see that there are so many maybe being sucked in by this. Free is free, and not free is not free...what part of that is hard to understand? You all have a nice day :) - buffalosoldier

Look at the no operating system option

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:26:03 -0600

If someone feels strongly about having DVD playback software preinstalled why not purchase the no operating system computer that Dell sales. Some one who knows of this issue and cares would have the experience to install what ever operating system they wanted and the software that they wanted on it. The nontechnical person would most likely want this software preinstalled. If we want the vendors to better serve us who run Linux we need more people using Linux. That means we need more nontechnical people on board. So their needs have to be meet too. - linuxuser

Get a Grip

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:13:30 -0600

Anyone that gets their panties in a twist about stuff like this should take a step back and look at the bog picture. Maybe even have a few shots of their favorite alcohol too. In order for Linux to exist and actually be an enjoyable experience to those trying it for the first time it needs niceties. Particularly those that allow DVD, MP3 and Flash playback. Simply in order to compete with the other OSs out there Linux has to emulate their usability as best as possible. - Rob J

The fuss is good

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:35:33 -0600

Note: All instances of the word "free" in the following are as in "freedom". I think it's great that people are making a fuss. The point of the free software movement is not to get everyone using Linux no matter what. It is to get people to use free software for their own good. There may be cases where the only solution is proprietary (DVD playback, unfortunately) but the act of bundling proprietary software with a system whose main advantage is to be free should be met with some resistance every time. It's starting down a slippery slope to bundle DVD software. The next step would be mp3 playback software. But there is a perfectly good ogg audio codec that we should be promoting for the same reasons as Linux. We shouldn't restrict freedom to the world of computing but aim to spread it to other industries too. This is already beginning to happen thanks to the temptation to use Linux in various hardware including media players and the "freedom infecting" nature of the GPL license. I'm not saying that Dell should not have bundled the DVD player but I am glad that some people made a fuss. These "zealots" will at least stick to the principles that are the main reason we have such high quality free software to enjoy today. And frankly, exactly the same arguments apply to the proprietary flash player. - TheQuickBrownFox

Mandriva also bundle LinDVD

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:50:21 -0600

It comes bundled with every Mandriva Linux CD or DVD. I simply uninstall it, or if I remember, don't let it install in the first place, and link to the PLF repositories, and install the Open Source versions of the CODECs. Anyone buying the Dell machines with pre installed Ubuntu, should be able to do the same, and link to what ever repository Ubuntu use for the Free Open Source versions of the CODECs. If you don't want to use proprietary software don't, just get rid of it. - i am the tracyanne that's registered damn you

A bundle is a bundle

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:48:04 -0600

You're not paying anything like a 'Microsoft tax', you're paying for support. If you want complete control over what you have on your system, reinstall your OS of choice, or even better, build your own PC. Why should Dell have to offer support for their hardware if they're not allowed to customise the software inside it? If you aren't happy with them adding a couple of things to the base install, don't buy a Dell. You aren't a part of their market, so stop chiding them for trying to offer a better solution to their end users. - Wires

reply to Stardog

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:15:57 -0600

Stardog inquired: >Has it been conclusively established that there is ANY cost passed to ANY consumer in this arrangement? Or are zealots jumping to conclusions in the abscence of good data to make more religious arguments?< As per http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/12/19/38924.aspx [Note that these ISO images DO NOT CONTAIN LinDVD, as LinDVD is a non-free application that is included in the cost of a system purchased with our Ubuntu 7.10 factory-installation. We'll make information available on how this application can be purchased after the holidays.] (I did my homework before jumping up and down rather than just 'jumping to conclusions' ;) >What other reasons would one have to buy a DVD player, outside of an utterly, extremely small amount of FLOSS software distributed in such a fashion, other than to watch movies?< Amusingly enough, as per the same URL: [We are now placing a DVD restore ISO image on the user's desktop. By burning this ISO to a disc and then booting to it, customers can restore their operating system to the exact state in which they received it. This now gives customers a second option to restore their OS, in addition to the reinstallation partition already located on the hard drive.] Also, while libre software is still not generally distributed in this format (though I have used the Linux Gamers Live DVD: http://live.linux-gamers.net/?s=download) it probably will be in the not too distant future (Ubuntu is running out of space inside its 700 MB CDs BTW). Additionally, it appears that Dell is (again) not offering a choice in the matter; all the choices of optical drives that the Ubuntu systems come with can read DVDs (there are no CD-ROM only choices). And don't forget data backup for the DVD burner options BTW. (Amusing aside: Personally I don't much care for watching DVDs on my computer; they look better on a TV IMHO :) I'm not against them selling LinDVD though; I just don't want it to be bundled into the cost of the hardware. >And if so, do not most FLOSS users want to maintain the law?< I think you mean 'abide by'; most people who immerse themselves in software libre soon realize what a nasty state the law is in regards to DMCA, patents, etc. and certainly would like to change the laws :) That's besides the point though; I'm arguing based on a freedom principle, the same way the police can't search your house without a warrant if they don't have probable cause to enter immediately. They could argue 'But an innocent person has nothing to hide and so should have no problem letting us come in whenever we want.' The reply of course is that an innocent person should NOT to be searched at all. But I'm getting on a tangent; let the users buy the software voluntarily. Dell could make buying it the default option, Dell could have a popup warning that these systems won't play DVDs out of the box and they won't play DVDs legally (in the US) if you don't use LinDVD, but just let me choose to opt out if I don't want it! Most users probably would buy it anyway. Its just like with Dell's Windows systems; if I'm a Linux user and don't want Windows, I don't want to be forced to buy a Windows machine only to blank the HD to put Ubuntu on it (that has historically been called paying the 'Microsoft tax'). This is basically the same thing, only with smaller sums of money and to a less hated company ;) - Limulus

...

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:02:47 -0600

I agree. This is a step forward for mainstream acceptance. You and me can install what is needed, but for most people they want it to just work when they purchase it. They have other things going on in their lives, other hobbies and interests and have no time or inclination to find out what to install. Yes, it only takes a few mouse clicks, but they are not going to do it. - Wayne

Is there ANY cost?

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:57:44 -0600

Has it been conclusively established that there is ANY cost passed to ANY consumer in this arrangement? Or are zealots jumping to conclusions in the abscence of good data to make more religious arguments? Do we have any confirmation that there is yet a price on this? The site says "Downloadable by manufacturers for evaluation". Is this a free trial? And if not, do we have conclusive proof that the price has been passed to the buyer? It could be that the price is trivial and eaten by Dell. And, even if it's not. What other reasons would one have to buy a DVD player, outside of an utterly, extremely small amount of FLOSS software distributed in such a fashion, other than to watch movies? And if so, do not most FLOSS users want to maintain the law? To counteract the "highbrow pirate" stereotype? Then the only solution is a legally liscenced way for you to watch them, which Dell has done. I expect many FLOSS religious zealots will say they merely have the DVD drive for putting their coffee mug on while they live thier lives in emacs, not for watching movies ;-) I call shenanigans on that. You can't have it both ways ;-) Let's at least have the details of the deal before we sign death warrants, have Roy start boycottdell.com, have RMS go nuts, and have the religious zealots slashdot this to death ;-) - Stardog

GNU

Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:51:42 -0600

I both agree with most of you and Limulus. Of course DELL wants to sell a complete system, as user-friendly as possible, but the entire idea about GNU is the freedom. It is not about the price, it is the propriarity part that bothers me. The idea of Ubuntu is that they want to leave the freedom to the user. Freedom to use/modify and redistribute the (modified) software (check out this article: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/cnews/article.php/3717476). Of course this is not always compatible (at this moment) with the desire of "the average user", so therefore I do not really bother DELL selling their modified UBUNTU. But please don't throw away the gain of Linux that easily. Fight for your freedom! P.S.: I dont know about the video codecs, but a free alternative to Flash player is available: Gash.... Maarten - Maarten Kooiker